Training for next year

[aislinn]

Hi Guys,

I am the training officer for next year and I am going to do the best I can for the clubs development next year.

To help me do this I am trying to do a “skills inventory” and to find out what people would like to see done training wise and how they can help out, and how best training can be used to help progress the clubs activities. I am contacting the main people for each area of the club and I would like to meet personally in groups or as individuals whenever they have a chance to have a chat about these topics. I will get the background work done in the summer so as to have everything up and running and provisionally timetabled before the new semester starts.

If anyone ever wishes to meet up with me to discuss training activities for next year please do not hesitate to contact me at [e-mail].

Cheers,

Aislinn

[harr]

Hey Aislinn.
Having been in the Burren on Sunday it might be useful to run through rock climbing gear placement and extraction. Setting up top ropes and anchors for use with a group and personal anchor set ups too. I am more than willing to go through any of the above with anyone who is interested. Ideally I could run through it some where with natural rock like the Burren or in the evenings after 6 some where around campus with rock like features, an old wall or something like that.

[Féar ghal]

I'm for that,I can set up my anchors and belay the person coming up behind me but setting up a bottom belay is still abit beyond me,I get confused!Plus its alot easier to talk people up a route while belaying from below them.

Gear extraction,especially after that cam incident.Thanks again Harr!

[thecolm]

ha ha what on earth happened last weekend?? ;D sounds good aislinn. think next yr we'll probably be able to do the lead course ourselves rather than payin ridiculous ammounts of money for it. I'd have no probs helping out with that and that way we can get it out of the way early in the year so people can get out and start practicing what dey've learned ;D

[Ginge]

Nice one Aislinn :-)

Ima have a word with you about all things Orienteering too :-P

Just on a side note: I really would not get rid of the Learning to Lead training and leave it down to our members. Perhaps when people have qualifications (yeh that has been talked about and hopefully next), but definitely until then, we should get the outside training. It is worth every penny.
(Granted I did hear bad reviews from this years learning to lead, which will be addressed)

[cillian]

i like the idea Aislinn... there is a good group around the OPC who can help get people started on the right foot...

I would agree with Ginge though...none of the professional courses should be 100% replaced with in house training but people should be well versed and prepared ( where possible)before going on any course to insure that they get the most out of it... if not they wont get t he benefit out of it

i cant remember who said it but it was compared to chinese whispers ... the more removed from professionals you get the message gets diluted and things get sloppy...

if people know the basics well before any trip/ course then they will pick up the info much more efficiently and get value for money... after all all club training is heavily subsidised...

Is Mise Le Meas
Cillian

[thecolm]

y would qualifications be necessary? If its just an SPA that those guys have its easy to come by and doesnt say a whole lot.
I would have thought that insurance wouldnt be an issue, club trip and all that, so fuk it we have the experience to teach our own so no point delayin

[thecolm]

sry didnt see cillians post.
ur rite about being prepared anyway.
but I still think I could be done just as well with us as with professionals.
and sure if you can save the money to go into somethin else isnt that worth doing?

[cillian]

In terms of cost its worth ever penny…its an investment in club development… the idea is thus-with training being received from outside professional people can come back to UL and progress others skills by passing on the basics and helping others get started effectively and safely… it’s a payback system though… when people give something back to the club they get more training and the clubs general skill set raises up

From an insurance point of view its not simply a case of it’s a club trip anything goes… the club may not be liable however if a claim is made that somebody thought unsafe practise that resulted in injury the person who showed this could be held personally responsible where the case could be proven that they put somebody they were teaching who took everything they were ‘thought’ as gospel in danger… any kind of injury is what training aims to prevent...its not just a liability issue its our friends who we have in the great outdoors...

This is a a fact and to avoid any such issues the professional training is provided to insure people are fully aware of up to date best practise and help develop the club in a similar fashion… this mainly has implications for both Caving and Rockclimbing where a lot of technical gear and the use of it is the issue… All reasonable efforts are made to keep peoples skills current by providing funding..

the thing is also that as budgets work you need to raise money to spend it so its not correct to think of being able to spend all budgetted money for training on anything else other than training... and to spend money a percentage must be collected first...

Ginge or Darragh K would be well able to explain this point further

Is Mise Le Meas
Cillian

[Ginge]

I'd be for a balance between professionals and in house. As was discussed at a committee meeting recently (and at the AGM) in house training is something that could be seriously developed.

The reason I don't want the professional training out completely is because, this people have been qualified to teach it (they take on an additional course after SPA i think before they can).

It's more that, at the moment while people don't have SPAs I'd rather they get a good base in training. Not that others can't provide, but while we have someone impartial and qualified to give the training its better than being passed between friends.

If the club were to go 100% with in house training, eventually certain things would be lost in translation along the way. Habits can get passed on.

We will always be covered insurance wise, but I don't look at the insurance, I look at peoples health and well being. A lot of the activities we part take in are only possible because of this professional training that is recieved.

Not saying people couldn't do it, but I think a balance between both is best. They really aren't that expensive considering what you get from them.

Maybe we could look into some kind of payment scheme thing for next year? Make it easier on peopel.

[thecolm]

I didnt mean spend budgeted money on something else, rather budget for somethin else in the first place.

A balance between the 2 as keith said sounds good.

On a side point, I thought the SPA was something that meant you could teach this?

Out of curiuosity, would someone from within the club having done the SPA be regarded as a 'professional' in the sense that you're using it if the people we are currently using in fact have no further qualifications

One last thing to Cillian, while yes it is an investment in the clubs development, if its something that can be done equally as well for free (not that it can of should be) then its hard to argue its worth every penny. i.e. I think i could have thought the lads 2 belay just as well as the course did hehe.

[aislinn]

@ Harr : That sounds brillant, I know plenty of people will be interested in that, including myself, perhaps we could try that some evening in the very near future. I have personal messaged you regarding when you are free and I will get in contact with Darragh Connelly too about.

@ Ginge : Definetly we will meet up, I also want to Jerome and Sharon if possible to discuss more orienteering training.

@ Colm: Thanks for agreeing to help with inhouse climbing training next year. When you are in Limerick next could you let me know and I will try to meet up with you to discuss training or at worst contact me on my email. I will also investigate your SPA questions.

cillian, Colm, Ginge: As Ginge has said a balance between the 2 is ideal. Also those pieces of paper look great on the CV, but as mentioned the cost is prohibitory, and as Ginge said that will something that will have to be investigated next year. Unfortunetly from what I have heard there were issues with the Learn to lead course this year, I have received feedback from people who did the course and I am going to make sure that such a situation doesnt arise again. And yes Colm you are right, simple things such as belaying should be taught inhouse. I understand people had to be taught figure of 8's at that course too which could have easily been taught inhouse.

Before any "professional" course are run next year I will have a list of prerequistes that people wishing to do the course must have done before they do it so they can get the most out of the course. I will also put in place a system wherby they can get the inhouse training before the course if they dont have the necessary pre-requisite skills. I also plan to set in place an anonymous feedback system regarding training so as to help me improve training in the club. I am working on that at the moment, I hope to get something going with the Survey Monkey website soon.

[Féar ghal]

Well I'm not sure what Learning to Lead for others was like but Colm has a fair point.Placing gear is a matter of practice(I'm still learning,with along way to go!) but its easy to put people on a toprope and practice it.Same with all the ropework,I mean we learn all the knots ourselves mostly anyways.

I just can't see the line between what can be taught and what can't.Does an instructor need to teach everything including belaying and knots to ensure you've done it right?

I appreciate the point about the "lost in translation",it is a worry.But between everyone it seems a fairly small risk.I'm pretty sure I can teach someone a figure of eight safely,if I did it wrong,it would be pointed out.

Learning to Lead..............its not a qualification,thats what gets to me.I didn't learn to lead,or was told I was ready to lead,or I wasn't.I learned to set up anchors,which was extremely useful but could have been taught by others.Its not like the suggestion is being made that we teach ourselves what we remember off the REC 3 course.I've a qualification off that course but I'd never do that!I've learned more about leading over the past two weekends then I did on the course.

People who havent done Learning to Lead but started leading this year are eons ahead of me from just going out and practicing it from what they were taught.Learning to Lead doesnt seem to be a headstart,its pretty vestigial.We seem to be doing it more for traditions sake or cover ourselves in case of accidents.I appreciate the sentiment of doing it right,but we have other options.

The monetary thing is also a lesser,ignoble concern.Which deserves a little pedestal next to it.Maybe not 2nd place,3rd or 4th maybe?

[darraghc]

I completely agree with fearghal; I don't see any part of the current learn to lead course that can't be thought safely (and better)in the Burren by our team. I think we should push everyone's skills and training level higher next year, forcing the professionals to train our climbers at a higher level in the course, thus getting better value for our money. With Gahan pursuing his SPA we can push the boundaries even more, having an SPA holder so close to us will enable us to get others the award much quicker, then year after year we can push the level of training until it is 100% in-house.

In regards Harr's proposal, I am all for it. I think the castle might be the best place for it, or maybe the older stables arch. Or we could do it in the Burren on the May bank holiday weekend. It being close to the end of the semester and exams are approaching it's hard to set an agreeable time.

[Ginge]

The SPA as far as I am aware is a qualification that allows you to bring groups climbing/set up top ropes for them etc. In the eyes of the outside world it is a professional qualification for doing such things. I don't think it extends to the point of being able to teach it straight away, pretty certain you have to do a course.

Darragh and Fearghal brought up some great points. I like the idea of making it so that those doing learning to lead push the boundaries making the guides have to do more.

As I have said, and I will maintain it, it is a balane we need, not one or the other. Everything you mentioned fearghal, such as belaying, tying in etc are all generic, there is no which way about it.

Where the act of leading itself differs is in gear placement. What is good gear and what is bad gear. Learning it from an impartial 3rd party, who is trained to teach it is better than having friends or older people in the club teaching it alone (again I say compromise) as they will be brutally honest with you. They are taught to teach what IS safe.

If you learn from friends there is always the risk of "yeh I'd go with that myself". And the habit of going with what is handiest, rather than what is safest could arise. I don't mean that in doubting anyone, beause I would check peoples gear and give my honest opinion but I think we avoid it happening with the 3rd party.

What if training was put into gear placement and possibly rigging systems before learning to lead, and then learning to lead is used as a "form of assessment" and I use that term very lightly to see how people are getting on and that they actually use the learning to lead training to actually lead for the 2 days?

Edit: I will just add that I never see the club 100% in house, as that goes on the assumption that there will always be people like us, but in greater numbers, a lot very interested in climbing and at the same time willing to give a lot of time to teaching. I don't mean that as a downer, but realistically we are a student driven club and not professional.